Are Companies Hiring? State of the Dev Job Market With Taylor Desseyn

Welcome to Syntax. Today, we have an episode for you on what does the job market look like for software developers, for JavaScript developers, for people building for the Wes.

We have a guest coming back on, Taylor Dessen, who, came on probably about just over a year ago, probably 14 months ago by the time you're watching this. Has it been that long now at this point? Yeah. It feels like yesterday. That is terrifying.

Yeah. No kidding. Right?

And, like, back then, we asked you, like like, why are recruiters so awful? And, like like, what's going on here? Yeah. And we thought, like, let's get them back on just to talk about what does the job market look like right now and and, like, what's working right Node, especially because, like, all the AI stuff in the past year has really blown up. So Yeah. Welcome, Taylor. Thanks for coming on. Yeah. Absolutely, guys. Again, thank you for having me. Just it means so much again as a I always say this JS a recruiter. I just feel

you know, I'm like, man, just blessed to be here, right, hanging out with you guys and, especially because I know most of us are terrible. I know. I know. Grateful. Very grateful.

You're lucky. Best best believe it.

It's it's actually funny, though, because the, like, the attitude towards recruiters in, like, the heyday of boot camp grads making $300 out the gate as I feel like it's changed because the the job market has has sort of turned in the in the last little bit and and maybe has turned back. We don't know, but that's why we have you here to talk about. Oh, good. I'm glad. I'm glad it's not, like, the latest Vercel framework or something like that or Oh, yeah. Whatever the JavaScript. No. I'm just kidding. Give us your thoughts on on Vercel components. Yeah. I am Give us give us give us an

intro of, who you are and what you do. Yeah. Absolutely. So my name is Taylor ESLint. I've been in the talent engineering space now for 13 years.

I have been recruiting engineers since .net Wes forms was Scott, boys.

So, like, literally, like, I remember recruiting, and and they're like, you do we get we we need .net web forms. Like, how like, well, I was like, what's a web form? And then, like, I remember when .net MVC came out, and, like, that was all the rage. You know, I remember when React came out, and everybody was paying a top dollar for people just to spell React. So, you know, I've I've been doing this thing for 14 years Node, and, actually, I think you boys will hear it first. I got a new job.

I got a new job. I am VP of global development, or global community rather for Torq, which is a talent marketplace. We were bought by the world's largest staffing company, Ronstadt.

And, basically, it's a really cool story. Ronstadt's Deno, like, the big c they're a $30,000,000,000 company.

And the Ronstadt CEO JS like, listen. Like, we don't have this is what I was told by my team. Like, we don't have a really good reputation with engineers. We don't really do a lot of engineering recruiting.

So, like, we're gonna buy Torque to basically, like because we like their model of community first.

And so they were bought by Ronstadt in May, and then I was on the job search looking.

Hit up Dave Messinger, who's my boss, on Twitter. He goes, well, believe it or not, this may work out. And it's been a long process. About 3 months later, I got the offer and, starting officially on Monday. So my so my role is hiring just a bit not even hiring. All my job is is to, like, make friends with developers across the world. So we're really trying to grow Latin America, a lot of the ERP space. So it's gonna be a little outside my realm of expertise, but, you know, we're trying to grow India, and then kind of one of our initiatives is growing AI in the US. So it's gonna be really cool.

Just, again, breaking bread with developers, meeting them where they're at, and and really just growing community at scale.

Nice. That's awesome. If you're meeting with developers and growing community with developers, as a recruiter, that must mean that recruiters are still looking for developers.

Yeah.

Wes you see on Twitter or, you know, ever, it seems like a lot of people are really feeling the crunch of the job market. But as somebody who hasn't been applying for a job lately, I don't know what the status is. So is it as bad as people make it seem? Is is there a big crunch in developer hiring right now?

I mean, it's bad.

I mean, it's yeah. I mean, it sucks. Right? I mean, I mean, just I always caveat says it sucks because it sucks compared to what it was in 2021, 2022, right, or 2020, 2021. Whatever. But, like, it was good, and then it wasn't. Let's just say that. And so now now the thing is is, like, companies are still hiring. Right? I mean, like, I know developers that have found jobs before they even get laid off.

But, again, that is the 1% Node. And, I mean, I was talking with a really good literally, a really good engineer yesterday that worked at Fanatics, and he's been without a job for, like, 6 months now. And the the pants? It's a yeah.

Node, they got the NHL jerseys now too, Wes Bay. Yes. I know. The NHL jerseys look so much better. Context on that joke?

Fanatics is a a company that they produce It took me a second now. I just never talked about yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I saw them. Yeah. Lower quality,

jerseys, I think. It's kind of, like, for the masses, but they've just been buying up, and they've been getting a lot contracts for, like, you know, like, by T shirts and MLB. Yeah. Well, they they got the MLB jerseys, and I think they, like, ripped right away. They were, like, see through. They were see through. I did. I remember saying I was like, good lord, have mercy. Yeah. And and so definitely not a great great start, but also just they already had a reputation. In fact,

man, Wes, there's a really good Twitter account. I'll find it and link it in the show. That is simply just people posting fanatics fails, where, like, I don't know how their factories work, but, like, they were shipping people a New York Islanders T shirt that says New York Rangers on it, but has the Islanders logo. I mean, it's like good. It's that bad. I don't know how they how they get it wrong, like, that bad. Yeah. Yeah. No. So, I mean, basically so, no, the developer was not was not let go because of the Sanity, just to clarify. But, like, a really good engineer was referred to me by another staff engineer who I knew in the area in Nashville, and, like, the dude's great. Like, talking to him yesterday, and he Wes like and he he was I mean, I hate it, but he was, like, on the verge of tears. He was like, what am I doing? What's going on? And, literally, I told him. I was like, the thing you need to be doing is you need to be messaging the job poster.

Like, when when when there's a job post Tolinski, message the job poster and, basically, like, follow-up with them, introduce yourself. He goes, that's so funny you said that. He said, I'd try to start doing that, and that's been the last 2 interviews I've gotten just because of that. And so I just think now, like, mass applying just doesn't work. I mean, I saw some post today on Twitter or yesterday. All the days run together at this point, but it was like, you know, it was like a DevRel Node, and it was like a 1000 people submitted their information.

Wow.

Like, that makes sense if, like, follow-up would work. Yeah.

If, like so that's a good tidbit to start out with Yeah. Is that, like, yeah, if you have a 1000 people applying for something, how do you stand out? Out. Yeah. So follow-up, that's a a good one. How and you said on Twitter or wherever. Is there,

ideal places and not ideal places? Like, don't drop at the coffee shop and stalk them or what? I I would highly recommend not doing that or sending I heard people send they find them on Facebook and then make comments about their family, like, trying to build rapport.

Don't do that either. Don't do that. Yeah. I mean, I'm serious. I heard that. Like, oh my gosh. I just love your kids.

Bro,

back off. Like, relax. Holy god. Don't do that. Fake enthusiasm or fake or fake interest. Yeah. Like, we get it a lot with people trying to come on the podcast is high. Absolute It worked with me. Get out of town.

There's no chance you listen. You work for a PR company. You're not listening to a podcast about web developers. Don't tell me you like the podcast. I don't know. Yeah. It just is I so for me and I've heard this consistently from managers. And so, obviously, I do a lot with Kelly Vaughn. Kelly and I Kelly Vaughn and I have that Discord, the friend zone, where we're just kinda, like, putting people in our communities together to talk about the job search because the job search can be very lonely, which is why my keynote is, like, you're not alone. Not the Seosin song for the record, but Love Seosin. But, basically, JS basically send the email on LinkedIn or the DM on LinkedIn or the DM on Twitter, and it's very simply you know, let's just say Susan. I was listening to a comedian, talk about Susan Boyle yesterday. So let's say the manager is Susan Boyle. You know, I'd be like, you know, hey, Susan. I'm sorry you posted this engineer. I went ahead and submitted my resume. Just wanna let you know, I feel like a really good fit. You guys are looking for Bos. I have ABC. Specifically, I've done this, this, this, and this. Would love to chat if you're interested more. That's it.

Because what I've realized is, like, I'm pretty sure when I talk to y'all too and maybe not, but I was saying, yeah. Go go message managers and ask them for, like, 15 minutes of their time or, you know, 10 minutes of their time to nobody has conversations anymore. Everybody is so exhausted, so nervous. They think they're gonna get fired. All middle management has been cut the last year, year and a half, so there's no, like, engineering managers. So, like, all the, you know, engineering manager plus levels are taking on all those responsibilities. Then they're trying to hire us 50 with 1,000 resumes. It's just a complete disaster, and so no one's got time to talk. So you have to be really, really good at creating really direct and meaningful messages in the DMs to elicit a response. And I think, like, one of the things I wish I went to school for was writing Because if you can, like, Scott, you know, with marketing and and learning how to craft a message that JS really engaging and get people to respond to you, to me, is a superpower right now. Like, it is a it is an absolute superpower.

Yeah. I I agree as as well. Like, being able to convey your thoughts or convey like, I I sell courses. Being able to convey why something is good is a massive superpower. Being able to distill it down into something that is very readable and very consumable, especially because, like, I feel like with a lot of these chat gpt and everything like that, you just feel like I'm so skeptical of everything.

And then anytime someone sends me something, I immediately have my,

this feels like AI coming at me. So if you're able to even do the opposite and Yeah. And make it better than that. Honestly, like, this is a hot take here, and I've, like, said this to a few people to, like, I've asked this to a few people, like, in the engineering space that I respect, but also, like, in the social media space I respect. And I was like, I feel like, actually, mistakes and spelling errors and grammatical issues are actually endear you more right now in the age of AI than the opposite.

Because, literally, like like, I mean, Kelly Vaughn and I talk all the time. Like, we see these resumes, and you can tell AI wrote them. It's fluff. It it's so many words, so many words, like and it's not conversational speak. And I think as an industry, especially in the software space, but I would say as a whole, maybe not like finance and, like, that side of things, but I would say there's a push towards conversational speak more than ever, not proper grammatical speech. And AI is spitting out proper grammatical speech. And so we I see resumes. Kelsey, we I talk to so many engineering leaders that talk that see these AI produced resumes trashed immediately. Like, immediately goes into the, I'm not gonna talk to you. So Yeah. AI based resume is Wes for real. Right? Yeah. It's awful. I'm curious about, like,

who is getting hired in terms of, like, seniority.

Are senior developer jobs at less of a risk, more of a risk, junior developer jobs? Like, what does that distribution in your

viewpoint look like right now? I feel like everybody's at risk. Like, to me, to sit here in this podcast, like, the seniors are fine. Like, no. Like, nobody's fine. I mean, I you know, it's kinda like a terrible game with Survivor right now. For me, I would say the people that are really, really, obviously in trouble right now are the people that are not closest to the dollar when it comes to there's a dog in this WeWork right now. So if you hear a dog, you know what's going on. He's he's actually a fellow recruiter as well that has his dog, that I know Node. But that's not the point of the story. The point of the story is is is who's in trouble? The people that are in trouble is if you're not closest to the dollar when it comes to revenue. If you are working on nongenerating, like, apps or things that don't make the business money, I would highly buy some awareness pretty quickly and start asking questions from your manager of, hey. What am I working on? What does this look like, you know, in terms of business Node map 6 months, 12 months down the road? How is this gonna generate the, the business money? Because in in full transparency, that that's one of the reasons why, like, it didn't work out for me at gun JS what I was doing at the time, I was too far away from revenue for what they needed at the moment. And and and that was that was nothing on them. That was nothing on me. It just is the way I kinda fit in the organization, which can be a whole another podcast about community and how it works with revenue, which is, again, like, whole another conversation. But for me, I just wasn't close to the revenue, and they Node revenue now. And so it just it it was just time for me to move on. And so I I think same thing with engineers. If you're working on some sort of app that's for, like, 6 users in back office HR to, you know, take away some automated Excel process, like, I don't I don't think you're gonna last that long. Oh, man.

Internal tooling is sometimes, it's really important, but Come on, Dan. I agree. And I agree. That's what gets, unfortunately, gets axed. That and DevRel.

That's close. Yeah. Yeah. DevRel is you're sorry you're seeing that as well with DevRel? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think I think, you know, especially so I'm on a DevRel advisory board right now. You Node, definitely with this new role, talking with a lot of DevRel folks and how they're structuring their teams and what they're doing because this is kind of a new foray for me. The biggest thing that I continue to hear is that nobody knows how to track revenue with DevRel teams. And and and I would say one of the best things, my last company did was actually tie me on the website from a marketing attribution perspective so you can, like, see kind of, like, what I've been able to bring into the business. I I just think no one knows how to put metrics around the DevRel team, and that's something that I'm actively, literally in conversations at right now just a month or two into my new job, as this new, you know, global community manager where it's like, you know, how do we show our value to, like, 6 skip levels up from where I'm at right now? Right? And and I think that's that's a conversation that we haven't figured out yet, but, I'm gonna start documenting next week about building this platform and building this community and kind of the metrics we're looking at because that seems to be one of the biggest issues with DevRel right now. Yeah. What about, like, actual tech that people are hiring for right now? What are you seeing as Data. The the tech data? Really. Skies our back end back end data disguised as AI. It was like, we need AI developers, and it's like, well, Node. No, Sis. No, Sally. You just need a Python engineer who, like you know? That was kind of the thing I've been seeing. I think a lot of people want AI folks, but what they a most companies can't pay what AI felt like, true AI folks demand right now. So they're like, alright. We'll settle for a staff engineer or senior engineer. And then, yeah, again, I I I said this, Python, Java, you know, high processing data, Kafka, MQ type stuff. Again, I don't know what these are. These are just things I read in JavaScript all the time. Right? I'm not gonna try to act like they're what I'm talking about. But, like, you know, I know kind of inherently what they are, but that's kinda what I'm seeing. Again, one of the reasons why, in my opinion, this fanatics engineer who came to me yesterday is having issues is because he's a front end developer.

And the problem is is boot camps, and everybody switched to all front end during the money grab of 2017, 16, 17, 17, 18, 16, 15. Anyways.

And, basically, everybody coded front end, and then everybody was left with no one doing back end. Right? And so I think I think if you wanna stay very employable time and time again, learn Python, learn Java, learn some sort of back end technology, and go double down on that, and I think that's the future, I think, for the next, you know, 5 to 7 year run.

Wow. That's that's crazy to hear because, yeah, for the longest time, it was learn React. Dude, I'm telling you, I like, somebody had a month could have, like, a month of React, and I could place them on a project for, like,

50% raise. It was nuts. Yeah. I was like I was like, I think I should do this. It got to a point where I was like, maybe I should do this. Oh, yeah. For sure. In in 2015, we were hiring I mean, this is pre React. It's just to show you that the front end thing, it was going on for so long. We were hiring Angular devs at 4. That that was 1 too. We could not find a single developer in the state of Michigan who fit our requirements who was available. It was, like, such an insane crunch for people who are just getting into the job market recently. You don't understand that, like, the reason why boot camps became such a popular thing was because there was such a huge disparity between the available work the amount of developers that had that skill. So in in your opinion, Taylor, is there less work, or did the positions all just get filled?

The positions all got filled, and there's less work. Gotcha. Yeah. I think it's like a terrible storm, man. I mean, I think it's a it's a perfect terrible storm right now, and and I think that's where I think you gotta network your butt off, and we if we if you wanna go into what networking means, you know, I can get pretty granular with that. You know, I think a lot of budgets were Scott. A lot of projects were shelved.

And when it comes to the positions being filled, like, again, you have to understand something. What we saw in 2021, 2022, we will never see again. Mhmm. We we will never see that again.

You know, I had a podcast.

My podcast, Guidance Counselor 2 ESLint o, I went live with Dan Thompson, who's still at Veiko, the company I started at and with that for 11 years. We he and I talked about the future, what we what we think it looked like, and we're not gonna, like, wake up one day, and it's gonna be like, oh my gosh. We're in it again.

Things are firing. I think we'll, like it'll be a year in arrears, and we'll be like, oh, we're out of it now finally. Right? Like, I don't think we're gonna have that acceleration anymore. And so so for me, the problem was is that acceleration was so rapid, and we called it on the podcast, on Unicorn Finders podcast that I was on with 3 guys. And we said this is unsustainable.

Something bad's gonna happen. And, basically, it happened, and so there JS so much I mean, I don't know about you. I know a lot of people that were in tech that were very vocal on Twitter that are no longer in tech anymore because they're just like, they wanna get out of tech now because it was a money grab. Like, everybody the old heads I talked to, right, all the unks out there, are saying, like, you know, this was basically, like, a mainframe grab of 2,000.

Like, basically, how how to code mainframe in 90 days, you're gonna go out and get a buck. And that's exactly what it was in in 2001 to 2020, 2020 no. 2020, 2022.

And I think we're going back to when I say even, you know, back to a normal market.

Yeah. A lot of smart people follow the money. Like, there's the amount of people that move from finance and marketing into coding.

Mhmm. Like, I so I worked at a boot camp for, I don't know, 4 or 5 years. Yeah. And they since have shut down because they simply cannot get these people hired anymore because there's there's just not enough jobs. It's not what it used to be.

But we had a lot of people coming in, a lot of really smart people that were coming from marketing, from management, or from finance.

And they say, like, I just like, they under I clearly understand this stuff, and they are going to be good at whatever it is that they do. And they think, alright. Well, I'll just learn to code because that is a a great spot to make a lot of money right now. But and, again, I would also say because people watch this like, oh my gosh. This sounds terrible. It's not awful. I wanna let you know. Like, it's bad, but it's you, like, you have to apply yourself. And I think the problem JS like like, prime example prime example.

I think we all follow him on Twitter. Wanna give wanna give his followers. Random recruiter on on on Twitter. He's great. He has a ton of experience. I like the way he does things, and he literally posted. He goes, please put your name and contact information on your resume.

Thanks.

So you know what that means JS that he has had

a ton Oh my god. Resumes

with no contact information on the resume right now. Like, folks, like, it's that's what I'm saying. It's it's hard. I I'm not gonna diminish that, but you just have to do the small stuff a little better right now. Mhmm. Yeah. Attention to detail or even just, like, doing it

like, I I I don't know. Then maybe this is just stuff that, you know, I picked up a long time ago, but it always feels to me like when I'm looking at resumes or anything like that, like, those little things just are kind of shocking that people leave those out, whether they aren't trying or they're using tools to do it for them that aren't good or or what. But it is shocking when,

the easy stuff gets gets missed. Well and and and I've tweeted this multiple times before is that the people who are getting the jobs right now are not better than you. They're doing the small things better than you. Mhmm. What Wes other kinds of things are they doing better? Enter first off, energy.

Energy.

Listen.

It's all vibes. And, listen, I've posted that before. People get so mad at me. Like, what do you mean to to job surgery? I'm not listen. Listen. I get it. Right? I'll go I'll I'll talk all day about tactical, practical stuff. But listen. Like, anybody who's listened to this going to listen to this, you guys, like, if you have hired, you know you wanna work with people who you vibe with. Yeah? Oh, yeah. Yeah. We we did that at with at Syntax Wes we got, like, a 1000000 people apply for a producer Node. Oh, I can't even imagine.

Node. And it's amazing how it was so easy to filter through all of it because the people who were clear had really good finesse, you know, in all of the stuff. Their website had lots of, like, nice little details. Their their resume was really, well done, and there wasn't, like, a lot of it was just finessed. It wasn't very well polished. Some of it was. Some people Yarn, but I say I am not well polished. No. I'm not a well polished either. I always tell tell people I had to call somebody that day. I'm like, make it crappier. You know? I I always have tweets with spelling mistakes in them and and things like that. I am not a polished guy at all, but

I feel like I I have a little bit of finesse. I feel like I have that, like, really good energy, and that's the type of person that we wanna be able to work with as well. And and and people people push back on this, and and I definitely wanna be sensitive to folks who, you know, listen, may not have the best personalities. Right? And we all know those folks. We know those engineers who are brilliant, who just don't have the personalities, and so I understand that. But there JS you still need to emote.

Like, you you need to like, at this point, y'all, we Yarn, what, 4 years into working virtually at this point. Now Amazon and Dell are trying to change that actively right now, but, like, we are 4 years into this thing. If you do not know how like, it is and, boys, I'm sure you know this JS a podcast and trying to host a podcast virtually, you have to emote. There is another level that you have to like, I am emoting right now. Right? Like, you have to, and it's like, if you have not figured that out at this point and you wonder why you can't get the job, come on. Let's Yeah. Let's put 2 and 2 together. And, again, I'm not acting I'm not telling you to be fake. I'm just telling you to give a little bit more because at the end of the day, if you are not engaged, if you're not asking questions, if you are not smiling, if you are not taking notes, if you are not, you know, having a really, you know, good a well written resume, if if if you are not doing those things and following up and sending nice emails, you won't get it right now. Yeah. That tracks so much. You know? Even

from my side of the aisle, it's always been, like, an energy thing where just simply being excited, giving a about what you're applying for. Because in the past, you know, there was definitely, like, a a swing to where people were very cynical about work in general, where it's if if they want me to do this, they, you know, they better follow everything that I, lay out for them, and then maybe I'll grace them with my my coding ability. But, like, it's so much more, you have to be excited. You have to be energetic. You have to enjoy what you do, because people don't wanna work with somebody who isn't excited about what they're working on and what they're doing.

It just it tracks for me so much. And and I think that's something that has always aided me in my my interviewing is I I think I'm naturally able to be excited about things that I really enjoy.

And it's always gotten a good response, so I I definitely feel that very much. Here's a question. Okay. Here's a scenario. How about that? Oh, boy. I like scenario. I feel like you're interviewing me now, Scott. Here we go. Yeah. Yeah. Here's a scenario.

A little leet Node exercise. I don't know even that is, but I'm just gonna say that name. I'm a developer. I've been working for

10 years, various jobs. I've had a a job for a couple years. It's really nice and solid.

I get laid off.

What is your game plan for them? Like, what is the alright. I just got laid off. Go. What do I do?

Yeah. I mean, I'm glad this is a great question. So first off, I would hit up every single Scott, I gotta ask, is that iced coffee, or is that just water?

It's it's water with one of those, little

hydration multipliers. Okay. Good. I have one of those 2. Yeah. I just wanna make sure you're drinking, like, iced coffee at, like, 3 in the afternoon. No. I I finished that. It's concentrate typically Wes I'm getting.

Giddy up. Talking about emoting.

So first off, hit up hit up the people who you interview with last time you were on the job search. I got this job at Torque because I interviewed I was barreling towards 2 offers before I even left my last position and because it was, I'm just gonna say, it was Gabe Greenberg in g two I. So he's the guy that runs, React Miami. Yep. Exactly. Gabe's great. Gabe, if you once you listen to this, hello. Along with Michelle. Yeah. And Michelle. Along with Michelle. Michelle's wonderful. So but it that didn't work out just just for various, like, reasons in the market. And so I interviewed so when I was interviewing, but after LaVeyco, I got an offer from Gun. I got an offer from G2i, and then Torq was in there, but Torq just couldn't move fast So then what did I do a year later when I left? Okay. I'm gonna hit up Gabe. I'm gonna hit up Dave at Torque, and then I hit up kinda some, like, ran like, random people that were on the peripherals there at the job search at the very end. And literally, like, I was about to get another offer from Gabe. It didn't quite work out this time, and then this happened with Torque and Dave. And and so, like, it's one of these things where hit up the people who you interviewed with and that you bonded with immediately immediately. Also, the conversation, this was really kind of an unlock to me that I was and see, I couldn't document my job search this time, right, because I Wes still had a job. Mhmm. And Yeah. Because, like so, you know, our boy, why am I forgetting his name? Also, I love him to death.

He's at he's at Storyblock now. I think Storyblock. Oh, Chan. Chan tastic. So Chan Yeah. Yeah. I love it. So Chan Yeah. Like, documented his job search, and I was like I was like, if I'm on the job search again, I'm gonna go real hard again. And I couldn't because I still have a job. But, like, one one of the things that I that I I I got a lot of pushback, not pushback, but just, like, questions, and I I'm glad we're talking about this JS people are like, oh, we don't have a role for you right now. And I was like, no. No. No. That's fine. Let's just still talk. And what I realized is that they were basing that off previous data they had in their brain, not what I was currently doing.

And so because then I'd have these conversation and be like, wait. You know what? You'd actually be probably a pretty good fit for this or that, or maybe you can help us consult on this or that. So every converse you need to take every conversation.

And even if they say Wes don't have a fit for you right now, it doesn't matter to take the conversation.

Yeah. You know what? That that also makes the, the idea of every time you're interviewing or meeting people or whatever, trying to leave a good impression that much more serious. Because if you're following up and you're reconnecting and you're trying to, you know, do all that stuff, then if people think of you favorably, they're gonna they're gonna try to help you even if they can't help you. Absolutely.

Absolutely.

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You don't want a production application out there that, well, you have no visibility into in case something is blowing up, and you might not even know it. So head on to reduce century.i0forward/ syntax. Again, we've been using this tool for a long time, and it totally rules. Alright.

I'm curious how you make yourself appear that way to people. Because, like, often, I find myself going to, like like, a Starbucks or something like that, and the person working behind the counter is just so personable, so dialed, like and I just I think I often tell my wife, like, man, if I had a job for that person, I would snipe them. Yes. You know? They seem they seem awesome, and I bet that they would do a really good job, working somewhere. Not that Starbucks is not a good job, but I feel like they could have, like, a really good career Agree. That type of thing. Yeah. So, like but what is that that you just notice it? You know, it's funny. I listened to a comedian,

a while back, and he said so we don't have any world wars in our generation. Right? I mean, I don't I mean, I'm sure we're gonna have conversations about that. But, regardless, we have we have not gone through World War one, World War two, right, cold war and that stuff. So the comedian was like, our World War one or World War two is working in the restaurant industry, the retail industry Oh my gosh. Or the or the hotel industry. There's basically, like, where we serve. They're, like, our branches of military, essentially. Man. So my branch of the military, warp, unquote, was the restaurant industry and and the and the retail because I worked at, Banana Republic for a bit. You are taught something different that you are not taught in a desk job.

And, like, I look for like, when I hire people, I look for people who, like, did like, when I was hiring my recruiting teams, I wouldn't hire anybody who actually had recruiting experience. You can teach recruiting experience.

Yeah. You can't you can't teach that competitive drive. So I was up to people who played competitive sports in high school and college or, like, you know, that worked in some sort of a, you know, hotel restaurant tourism space.

I specifically would look for people who, like, serve tables at, like, really popular restaurants so that they would be really, really busy because they can handle stress better. And, like, those are the type of people I look for. You can teach anybody anything if they have enough drive. Man, yeah, you think your email is stressful? Try Chili's on a Thursday afternoon. I've always said it's so funny. So I serve tables. My dad owned Outback Steakhouse in my hometown for 25 years, and I said, no. I have not worked in a job anywhere near stressful to this day than having 3 tables that all sat at the same time on a Friday night that wanted their balloon and onion all at the same time.

Yeah. I, yeah, I get that. I used to work at Wes JS it? Target. I worked at a restaurant as Wes, so I've done both. And, yeah, they you know, it's it can be

really, difficult Yeah. With with people, like, that that intensely. CSS, yeah, totally feel like that. So back so back to your question, Scott, because I wanna make sure, can we hit the high point? So Yeah. Again, follow-up follow-up with the people you interviewed with last time. Have any calls, any and all calls.

Another thing that really worked for me is asking for the warm referral. Right? So I post about this a lot. This is a trick I learned when I was in the recruiting industry.

Because, ideally, like, if I talk with Scott and Scott and I vibe, they're like, Scott, it was great talking with you. Do you know any other, Angular engineers that I should talk to? Like, yeah. Yeah. Actually, I podcast with a guy named Wes. You should talk to him, and then boom. I'm talking to Wes. Right? Get off the call. Wes, great. It was great hanging dude. Who who else should I talk to that is kind of in your background? Oh, I'll get you to talk to so and so. Right? And then all of a sudden, I'm talking to, like, everybody's friends, and it's all warm intros. And so, you know, that's that to me is one thing I really started to do on my job search. Like, hey. You know, it was great talk. Who else who else do you think I should talk to? And then it Wes, like, this conversation and this conversation and this conversation. So that and, again, it all snowballs on itself and and which is really the the the best imagery for people is, like, you know, if you start a snowball, it's it gets really small, and then you keep rolling it. It gets bigger and bigger and better, and that's really the job search.

And then finally is keeping track of your leads. Like, literally, I would have an Apple Node, and I would basically categorize it as hot, medium, meh, and just, like, on the radar, basically. I had, like, 4 categories, and I would every day, like, wake up and, like, move things and, like, type things. People can use Trello. I know there's a bunch of fancy tools. I just use Apple Notes. And so that was another big thing for me. Follow-up, keep track worth Wes things are because, again, time flies when you're having fun. I haven't spoke with you boys in 14 months. It literally feels like maybe 6 months. Yeah. The the time is a very weird thing, and I've talked with this a whole another conversation in Vercel is, like, just time after COVID is, like, very fluid.

And so, like, trust me. You think a week's gone by, a month could have gone by, and you could have missed out on that opportunity because you didn't follow-up.

Yeah. You'd mentioned you'd used the word warm intros there, which I I think is important to touch on. And I think that's a good opportunity to, like, move into the conversation around networking. Right? Yeah. So, like, networking probably begets a warm intro. Right? So how do you network?

So I am I am the biggest scary cat, which is hilarious. Like, I've somehow found this job in this career where I, like, post my entire life online.

I've taken off for the last month because I haven't wanted to be able to tell about the job, and I've been wanting to kinda keep secret and, honestly, just give give myself a break.

And but, like, I've kind of put myself out there for so long. But, like, if you get me, like, 1 on 1 and and you're if you're not in the tech industry, it is I'm the most awkward person. I'll never forget. So I moved up to do music with my buddy, Jake Efridge. His wife did, like, a single with Dustin Lynch. I don't really know who Dustin Lynch is.

All I know, he's got, like, a lot of teeth.

Like, he got one of those big smile type guys. Let's just say that. And we were at some sort of party with them and a bunch of country artists, and I was just like, I don't know what to talk about, like, all these famous people. And I was, like, hanging out with my buddy. I was like, man, like, what you've been doing? You know? Just kinda, you know, shoot this And I was like, I gotta get out of here. And then there was this guy standing at the corner of the room. I was like, no. I'm a go talk to him. The dude was a tech founder.

And so, like and then so, of course, I hit it off with him. So, I mean, for me, like, I'm not the best at it. I struggle at it. I think if I've been to your conference that you've organized or or you know me through the kind of conference circuit, like, the joke is is I'm in bed every night by 8 PM. Like, I just don't have the motor to go out. I'm I'm just not the best at it. So what I do is I really take advantage of Twitter and LinkedIn.

I have realized, like, that is who I am savage at it, and I have made a career of just messaging people, liking their comments, retweeting their stuff, giving thoughtful comments. I'm on LinkedIn, messaging people, connecting with people, liking their stuff. Like and I because to me, like, that's kinda like async networking, which is nice. Right? Like Yeah. Like, I don't know about you. I don't answer any phone calls that come to me. Be on the my name's Taylor.

But right. I'm like, just leave a voice mail, and I'll call you when I'm ready. And I feel like society is like that in general. It's not just me or most millennials. And so, like and so for me, it's one of these things where that's where I really take advantage of. And so and then content. And so, basically, what I've realized is if I put out enough content and I connect with enough people online, then the in person's a little easier. Right? Because then you go to conferences. I mean, you boys know you've been doing you go to a conference and people know who you are Totally. Which is really nice because it's because then because then they bring in their friends. They're like, Scott, I want you to meet my other friend, Keith. And they're like, oh, I've never met Keith before. And then and then you leave the conference with, like, 25 new contacts

because your friends who know you through content was able to introduce you. Yeah. And and I I wanna back up to what you said about just you know, even if you are a scaredy cat, I wanna shout out my homie, Trey Walletto, who he just hit me up on Instagram and was like, hey. You wanna go skiing sometime? I'm in Colorado. I'm a developer.

I'm like, that sounds like a lot of fun. We have not gone skiing, but we went out to coffee. And now I see him at meetups, and I'm like, Trey, what's up, my man? I love that. Yeah. I love that. A year ago, I didn't know who this guy was. And now, you know, now every time I see him, I I'm stoked to see him. You know? So, yeah, shout out Trey because I know he's a a Syntex fan, but,

yeah, it works. Man, that's great. I love that. I mean, I started so another thing too I've started is, like, a bunch of, like, subcommunities to kinda reach the people who I wanna connect with. You know, I I I felt a huge gap in the tech industry with dads, and so I started the dads in tech group. We're having our 2nd meetup tomorrow. Yeah. Tomorrow. And I have a Discord. We have, like, 80 dads in it. I don't care about numbers, man. I'm getting too old now. Like Yeah. If I can get 5 dads in a Discord that are engaged, I could you know, that's what I really want. Like, I'm at the point now where I don't care about followers and stuff. I just care about meaningful, deep connections.

You Node, you have these relationships, and that's where I'm always saying, like like, you gotta get involved into a Discord. Right? Like, like, get involved in a Discord. Get involved in a such. You know? Like, those are the new meetups. Like and then you start engaging with those people, and then you meet and then you ask them. So, like, our dad's group, we have, like, 6 cities that are kind of mainly populated, like Raleigh, Nashville. I think there's a few people in Denver.

This is a quote. The guy who shot my announcement video, which by the way, boys, I'm wearing y'all Sanity FM in my announcement video. I just wanna give kind of a nod to you boys. Which one? The the one? The the one you have. Yeah. Yeah. The one you have. Yep. So so I'm, I'm rocking that in my in my, announcement video on on Monday.

So but, basically, he said it best. So this guy is actually head of creative and content for, like, a, believe it or not, like a, like, a sunscreen company. He's definitely in the d two c world.

And, he he and I were having dinner, and we were talking about how to build community.

And it was such a meaningful conversation because I I was in tech. He was like he's like in, like, fashion, like, lifestyle type stuff, but you know what the same was? He said it, and I said, holy crap. This is it. He says he got his name's Carl Maynard, by the way. I wanna give him props here. He goes, my goal is to give people a starting line and let them start.

I was like, man. It's like, that's so good. And I think, like, I think when it comes to Sanity, and this is kind of what I believe in, it's like giving people a start like, giving people the opportunity to be in community.

And so I guess my encouragement to folks watching this, like, how does this apply to my job search? If you know folks like Wes, like like Scott, like myself, I mean, there's so many other amazing community builders out there on Tech Twitter, just ask who they're which community they're involved in. Just go get involved in that Discord or that I mean, you know, with Virtual Coffee, shout out them. They do an amazing job. Right? They're a they're a totally virtual, remote community with Slack, right, which is you know, again, you don't see that that often. So Yeah. Get involved. It's great.

Yeah. It's it's good. I like I'll tell people if you're not in some sort of back group chatter, like, you yeah. Most of the stuff happens on Twitter, but the amount of private Slack channels, Telegram groups, Discords, whatever, there there is tons out there. And that's where the real chats happen as well.

And, like, it's not like you have to be involved all the time, but it's nice just couple messages a day fly through, and you can pop in and hey. Has anyone has anyone done x, y, or z? Oh, yeah. I've done that. Let me help you out here. It's Be visible. To get into those. Yeah. And then, literally, that's one of the job descriptions for some people on my team I'm building. And, obviously,

this will come out later, but, like, Jason Torres. I hired Jason Torres to come work for me and, who puts on Techcommute. And, like, there is and I have another guy who's in Portugal.

Half of their job description is just to get involved in the chitchatter.

That's it. Yeah. Because that's where community is built.

What about all this, like, return to office, remote work? What are your thoughts on where all that's at right now?

We're in an interesting time right now. Right? So Amazon basically mandating it. It was so funny. I know so that one of the guys that joined Torq, he was being courted by Amazon.

He's an AWS hero, and he basically was like they kinda let me know what was going on. And And then I was hanging out with a buddy of mine who's who's a product manager, but he's more on the supply chain product. So he, like, manages all the workstations for Dell in, like, one area of the business. And and he told me last night that Dell is, like, basically wanting people to start coming in, like, in Nashville.

You know? So then we were talking about that, and I've had a bunch of people DM me. They're like, you know, what where where are we heading with this? Listen.

At the end of the day, folks, the company's had a leverage right now. Yeah. And I know you don't like it because you know what? We had the leverage for the last, like, 10 years or at least 5. Right? And so, like, this happens. This happens. It'll pendulum back, but right now, you don't have the leverage. You just don't. Now you have the leverage if you're single and don't have kids. You can go move. Right? I would highly consider that right now if I were you.

But for me, listen. There are companies that are still gonna be remote first. It's not it's not gonna like, the entire remote industry, JS it just gonna go away? You know? But, again, we're just level setting. We're just level setting. We went very on we're like basically, we binged on bonbons and, like, chocolate milk for, like, the last, like, 3 years, and, basically, the market's getting us back in shape again. Like, we're having to do some burp we're we're having to do some burpees, folks. We're having to do some Yeah. Some sprints, and those suck. Those are awful. You asked me to do a burpee right now? Mm-mm. Not at all. And so but but because it's painful, and what we're going through is painful because it's a realignment of the market. And so, again, I think my biggest suggestion for folks is be flexible, be kind, be gracious in the job search, and it's gonna work out.

On that same note, I wanted to ask if you have any hilarious stories of the typical, San Francisco tech bro who's maybe asked for too much in in negotiations.

Do you have any stories there? You know, no specific stories, but I do have to say be careful.

Be careful.

Right? Read the room.

You know? Because what's what's happening is is Wes, as human beings, like to hold on to the things that fit our narrative.

Right? And and that could apply to every every area of life.

And, basically so what so what I what I mean by that is is when I was, like, a hands on recruiter, I would say, hey, Scott. The range is 75 to a 100 k. Well, guess what part of the range Scott held on to? The a 100 k parts. Yeah. Right? And so, like and so then you're like, well, tail and then I offered you a spot at, like, 85, and you're like, Taylor, that's, you know, $25,000 under what you said. I said, no. No. No. That potentially is, like, $15,000 above what I said too, but you were only listening to one side. And so I think right now, people are like, should I still counter? Should I drive a hard bargain? Like, no. Not at all. You should just be grateful you got a job.

Yeah. That's that Sanity, it seems like where we're at. Right? Yeah. And that's not bad thing. Now here's the deal, folks. If you feel like you're getting under like, way underpaid or taken advantage of, I'm not saying don't speak up. There are employers out there that I have they specifically have heard about that take advantage in low balls.

Stick up for yourself. But, like, if you got your salary that you wanted, that, literally, that you asked for, why are you countering? So, again, read the room, be aware, and, don't don't there's there's no need to counter unless you have now if you do have specifics so let's say you had, like, a stock stocks at the previous company that, like, the company really wanted you to start October 1st, but you had to stay at the other company through October 30th to to get the stock buyback or whatever, and and you're like, well, I'm missing out on $45,000.

Can we do a sign on bonus of at least $30,000? I'm fine with that. That is a specific, you made me leave. If you wanted me here, you need to we then we need to meet we need to meet in the middle here. Right? I'm fine with that. But, usually, those are not the cases. It's usually the, oh, I just was told to negotiate, so I'm gonna negotiate.

Mhmm.

Don't do that.

So for developers out there who are looking to stand out, we've already said, you know, follow-up, take care of the little details, finesse, those types of things. Right? But what do you think is the most important thing right now to be assured that you're a fit, technically.

I know in the past you had here's an exam. Like, here's a take home exam, whatever. Here's a code example.

Do you think, like, it's, like, breadth of projects? They have a GitHub. They're active. Or do you think it's, like, real world projects or who you worked for in the past?

Real world projects. Like, literally, you have to do the job before you get the job right Node. Yeah. The amount of DMs I get, especially when I came on y'all's podcast the first time, I was like, damn. Like, so shout out to y'all for having a following. I was like, wow. This is kinda crazy. So shout out to you guys for building such an amazing community. You know? And, of course, I have people that argue with me. I'm like, listen. Like, I'm not I'm just trying to help. Right? Like, it is what it is. And so for me, it's like I feel like in this market right now is you have to approve you can do the job before you get the job, that's either if you're junior trying to just get a job, you've you you have to show Node to like, you have to, like, build like, I had a junior developer slide into my inbox, and he's helped me build, like, a small project for me. I have I have, like, kinda like this, like, connect with Taylor's community type situation because have so many people coming at me. I just can't keep up with everybody. You know what I if I tell you, I'll keep you in mind, I'm not gonna keep you in mind. I'm sorry. I just don't know what else to say. I just I just don't know what else to say. And so, like, for me, like, I'm trying to fix that specific problem, but, like, he reached out.

Right? He reached out. He wants to help me. And that experience and he he's like, do you care what tech I use? I said, not at all. And so he's so he's like, good. Because I wanna deal with some different frameworks and some different, you know, serverless blah blah blah blah stuff. I said, great. Do it. Right? It's the same thing here. Like, if you're a senior or mid level engineer and wanna jump to staff or senior, like, figure out what those guys and gals are doing and start doing it now.

Yeah. As best you can, I understand that, but, like, I think gone are the days of of just like, Scott, you're a really good mid? We're gonna promote you to senior. Now that is still gonna happen, but, like, it it's man, Scott, you really branched out here and implemented this feat this thing that resulted to this that wasn't even asked about you, and so this what really made you you got those are the conversations that are happening right now. So do you think developers should understand, like, stakeholders and business goals? I think that's the unlock. I think that's the unlock. Like like, knowing business has gotten me much further than anything else, and I am not technical at all. Right? Now, again, I'm kind of in a different side of things, but, like, I've never coded. I would say I'm in DevRel.

Why? Because I hear and I observe all the problems that all these tech companies have,

and I implement it. Yeah. You you understand.

Right. You understand.

Like, I understand whether I know how to actually do it, I understand it. And so I think that's the unlock for comp I think that was great.

A shareholder, like, understand what the business needs and start thinking business minded instead of just, hey. Here's your ticket. Yeah? How do how do you make money, and how can I help with that with my skill set? Exactly.

Node actually question I have, we had somebody come on the podcast or submit a potluck question the other day. He said, I'm 50. I've worked at the same job for 25 years, and I don't have anything to show for my skill set. I have the skill set, but I don't have anything to to prove that.

What do you say to those people? Do they do they need a website? Do you need a portfolio? Or what do you do when everything you've done is locked away behind some company? You think it's probably yeah. I would ask, like, is it a NDA or, like like, what do you mean you have nothing to show for? Like, can you not write a resume?

He probably can write a resume, but, like, there's no, like I mean, I think writing a resume and that if you get the same company, like and this is Yarn. This is hard. If you get the same company, it is hard to, like, write a resume. And to me, that's one of the things, for some reason, I'm really good at is, like, if you've been at the same company for a long time, like, I'm really good at helping people write resumes from that perspective. But, like, it's showing how you move the needle over 25 years. Like, that's that's what needs to be the focus. Right? It's like, okay. I did when I started Wes years ago, we had these systems, and now I've implemented these systems. Right? And, like, walking me through that entire listen. Everything is storytelling.

Everything. So so I'm watching the monsters thing on Netflix, the Melendez Brothers. I think it was them. Right? That that that's true. Yeah. We're right. We're gonna watch that. Yeah. So good. We'll be watching this. Yeah. Crazy. Oh, man. I'm obsessed. Thick pick. And and and they're literally coming out with another documentary or they're coming out with a documentary. This is more of a show, like dramatization. They're coming out with another documentary because every I can't get enough of it. I I'm, like, on TikToks and everything. But so guess what those lawyers had to do that defended the Lindes brothers? They had to develop a story to convince the jury the reason why they killed their parents.

It's all storytelling. Your interview process is I did this. When I came in, I was hired to do this. Here are all the steps I did because you have to convince the hiring manager to hire you. You've been at the same company for 25 years, you need to convince me how you can get that job by applying specific facts over the last 25 years of what you've been able to do.

And I think, like, the art of storytelling and writing is something that we're not talking about enough because we're too busy with the bits and bytes, which I understand. But, man, if you know how to story tell and make things engaging, that is where you're gonna really excel in your career.

I'll add to that JS keep a log of your wins as well. Often, you can look back. Oh, what did I do this year? I'm not really sure. But then you start thinking about it. Oh, I did do quite a bit this year. You know? And that times 5 or 6 years or 20 years at a job, it's easy to forget, like, what you've actually done and and the impact you've had. So every time you have a win, write it down. Yeah. I so I rewrote my resume because I applied to a

believe it or not, I didn't apply. Let me rephrase that because I people will come at me like, Taylor, you applied. You tell me not to apply.

I did not apply anywhere, but I had to write a few versions of my resumes.

It took me a while to write my resume because I did not do that. I guess what I'm saying is I didn't do that, and I should have done it. I interviewed 1 guy on my podcast. He was like it was a guy or girl, and I can't remember who. And, basically, it was so good. They were like, 30 minutes once a week and 1 hour a month.

Set aside a time block specifically for those. So 30 minutes 30 minutes a a week. It was even less. It was maybe 15 minutes for, like, wins. And then at the end of the month, set aside, like, 30 minutes to an hour and re go over that list.

They were like, you're gonna be very happy where you're at after a year when you have to go on the job search, and it helps with raises. It helps with negotiations, title changes, progressing. That was the word. Progressing through the the company.

Because a lot of times and, you know, I tell people this JS as a manager as a as a manager now of a lot of people and then formally a manager a lot of people that, like, we I can't keep up with everything. So I'm trying to, like, survive on my own. So, like, when we have our review, I need you to come to me and be like, yo, bro. Here are the, like, 16 things I did, and I'd be like, woah. Did not know that.

Right? And so, like, you're really hurting yourself if you're not spending 15, 30 minutes a week just writing down some wins in an hour a month. Oh, and then also also one Node thing one more thing. So when I I wrote my resume for the job search. My resume JS getting a little long, boys. I'm getting old. I'm getting old. Right? I'm in my mid thirties now. Resume's getting a little a little long now. It's, like, 4 pages. And, like so, basically, what I did is I read every single bullet point, and I was like, would this make somebody call me? Yeah.

Would this bullet point make somebody call me? And a lot of them didn't, so I had to take them out. And so, like, that's the question I would ask you. If you are writing your resume or your LinkedIn right now or your cover letter, every bullet point you write, ask yourself, would this make a hiring manager call me? Would this make a staff engineer call me? Would this make an engineering leader call me? If the answer is no, take it out or rewrite it. Man. Beautiful. That's all great advice. And that's, I think, a great a great place to

even cap this one because I I think that's that's just such key advice. You just dropped so many nuggets in this Node, whether that is the storytelling bit, the marketing yourself, or any of that stuff. It it's been really great to to hear your perspective.

Now let's, get into the part of the show that we call Sick Pics and Shameless Plugs, where you just tell us about something that you're liking right Node, and then, get to plug something.

Cool. Yeah. I got PlugTorque. I mean, I'm pretty pumped. Right? I mean, everybody says that. Like, well, you know, you were pumped about your last company. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm still pumped about this. I can be pumped about all of them. Right? Yeah.

Yeah. And so torque dot dev.

Listen. I'm gonna be honest with you. The sign up is pretty pretty pretty not great. We're working on it. K? We're working on it. We're hiring a team. We're hiring a design agency. We're gonna redo it. Torque Scott dev. Basically, our entire job is to just get you on the platform. We're gonna set up a bunch of things. We're, like, we we're gonna engage with you through our Discords, through, like, meaningful emails. We're gonna give you a lot of job search content. I'm responsible kind of building this whole thing out. And then, Brianna Holmes is helping me as well, who's the marketing lead for render, ATL. And so we're we're kinda gonna chop away at this together. If you're on the job search, we'd love to have you a part of it. So torq.dev, go sign up. And then also to Guidance Counsel 2 point o. I'm gonna spin it back up in November. Took some time off, just because I wanted to obviously see where everything landed with the job. And then I'm on all socials Sanity dessentdesseyn.

Wes, yeah,

that's me. How do you spell Torque? Is it t o r q u e? T o r c.

T o r c. Okay. Yeah. Sorry. T o r c, Torque Scott dev. We're actually doing a huge, like, hands hand all hands on deck in Boston next week. So may maybe we can I mean, maybe we should do a little a little Boston meetup? I don't know people in Boston.

Yeah. It's been a minute for me. Yeah. But, anyways yeah. Cool. I think what we're gonna do I think what we're gonna build is good. You know, to to put in perspective, we're kind of the top feeder for, like, a $30,000,000,000 staffing organization. So, like, our goal is just to, like, get as many people in the hopper and then ultimately distribute people out to jobs.

Along the entire your job search journey, what my role is is basically to give you meaningful content from myself, from Jason Torres doing the tech commute, from, you know, Brianna pulling in stuff from her network. And and and so we're gonna, you know, do a lot of collabs and and and basically try to give people, like, this huge library, you know, to go through their job search not by themselves.

Cool.

And,

sick pick. I mean, you gotta go monsters. I mean, it's just it's just so good. I it just is too good. It's too good. Also, I got this mic. I feel like it would sound bad. It's, like, $35.

Sounds good. Like yeah. It's $35.

Yeah. This is $35. I wanted something so, like, I so I had that big boom stand, and also my my my job got me the WeWork space. So, like, I'm mobile.

Right? So I wanted something that's, like, tiny. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And, like, that can just kinda bring on the bring on the go. Especially traveling, this new role has me on the road pretty much all of October, with conferences, and so I'm still gonna want a podcast. And so, you know, being able to do this on the road, I wanted something small and compact. So this is the, what is this called? HayDay. Oh, yeah. HayDay.

So you can buy it at Target. It's $35 if if you like the sound. I mean, I think it sounds great for just, like, a little room mic. So yeah.

I I think about $35

microphones that I've heard. And, yeah, it sounds good on on on our end. Yeah. It it it's obviously, yeah, not like a I mean, I mean, the room's the echo y for sure, but, like, yeah, I mean, for $35 and being able to take it on the road and being able to do podcast with good good sounding audio is hard to do.

Yeah. Yeah. The the cheap mics have gotten really good. And, like, producer Sanity, he has a whole YouTube channel on just mic reviews. Oh, does he really? He's always, like, he's always getting some random mic that is, like, fairly inexpensive. He has some really expensive lens too. Yeah. But Yeah. It's like I'm sure he would tell you, man, you don't need a lot You really don't. To do it. I mean, I had, like, the 30, what, the 34 inch Dell UltraCurve

monitor, like, the boom stand. And I I just I just I Wes, like, telling my wife. I was, like, I just wanna consolidate. I just, like, I wanna get a 24 inch monitor and, like,

small mic and just, like, have it, like, very compact on on my desk. Maturing. Yeah. Maturing. Haven't reached that yet, but, yeah, I heard that. That's maturing. Yeah. Same. Shout out to Randy's, YouTube channel. We'll post a link. It's, Randy Rector on YouTube. Yeah. He does great microphone reviews and sound stuff.

The one thing I don't like about cheap microphones is a lot of them have RGB in them, and it makes some continuity really Yarn. Because if you clip if you clip someone's video really quickly, you notice the jump a lot more because the RGB is I didn't know. I don't know what that is. Hopefully, that's not the case here. No. No. It's like the lights. Like the It's like a gamer light that's on the screen. Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. Cream color. It's nice looking. Yeah. They won for it. Yeah. Twitch streamers. Target. Man, Target. Target. Fast I love Target. I love Target in Canada.

I was gonna say Target. Border and get go get it. I love it. Wes, they built 1 walkable for my house. I can walk to Target now. So Must be nice. Target's great.

Well Wes, thank you so much for coming on. Appreciate all your time and and insights. This JS really fun.